Hi John,
I have been meaning to ask you about this because I don’t remember ever hearing it before. In the Old Meeting audio from January 18, 1981 (the meeting where you were preaching on discerning the Lord’s body), your father also had a message toward the end of the meeting. This is part of what he said:
“…and another expression — please stay away from it — ‘going to heaven’. I want you to tell me where anybody ever got that from, ‘we’re going to heaven’. Don’t you know that if you live right and you die, he’s coming after you? Well, what would you be doing, if you’re up there, he wouldn’t have to come back? You’re gonna fall asleep in Christ and have the pleasantest dreams you ever had in your life. You know, you’ll go to sleep and dream beautiful dreams. You’ll go to sleep and you’ll be in a beautiful world. But you’re gonna be right here until he gets back. . . . We’re not even going to inherit heaven. Heaven was made for God and the earth was made for us, and the new one’s gonna be in the same pattern. Heaven and earth. . . why do you want to go some place that’s gonna be burned up? [He’s] gonna destroy both! There’ll be a new heaven and a new earth wherein will dwell righteousness. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth!”
What preacher Clark was saying here makes sense, but it did raise some questions concerning what I used to think about what happens when we die. For one, if the righteous dead in the Old Testament went to the place called Paradise, and now Paradise has been relocated to Heaven when Jesus “led captivity captive”, it would seem that the righteous dead would still go to that place, now in Heaven. Jesus indicated this when he told the thief on the cross, “Truly, I tell you, today you’ll be with me in Paradise.”
It seems a little strange that the souls of the wicked dead would continue to go to Hades, but the souls of the righteous dead no longer go to Paradise, but just remain (somewhere) here on earth.
And then there’s also the verse in 2Corinthians 5, where Paul says, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”
I was also going to mention Revelation 19, where I had thought the Bible described the saints riding behind Jesus on His white horse when he returns to earth. But when I read Revelation 19:14, it says, “And the armies that are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following him on white horses.” The armies, I suppose, could be angels or other heavenly beings, but not necessarily us.
The point is, there are verses that seem to indicate that we will be present with the Lord in heaven after we die, and verses that indicate that we will remain here on earth until Jesus returns. I know we don’t have a lot of details on what exactly happens at the moment of death, but can you shed any light on this mystery?
Vince
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Hi Vince.
It is clear from the Scriptures that those who die in the Lord go to Paradise, which is now in heaven where Jesus is, as you pointed out. My father’s point, which he touched on in that sermon, was that after death, only our spirits go to in Paradise, for we are no longer in our bodies, nor have we received the new bodies God has promised to those who love His Son. My father often described the state of the dead in Christ as being in a dream-like state. Dreams seem real to those who are asleep, as real as when they are awake; however, the Bible says Jesus will be returning for the faithful, to catch them up out of their graves, give them new, glorified bodies (1Cor. 15:35–45), and take them away to present them to the Father. Paul described that in 1Thessalonians 4:
- Brothers, we would not have you ignorant concerning those who fall asleep, so that you do not grieve as others do, who have no hope.
- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will God take away with him.
- Now, we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who sleep.
- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
- Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them among the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so, we shall ever be with the Lord.
Your question, then, is this: If the dead in Christ are already in heaven, why would Christ be coming back to earth to get them? It’s a reasonable question, and the only reasonable answer is what my father taught, to wit, the spirits of dead saints are in heaven, but they are without bodies. Why the Father will send Jesus from heaven to raise those saints from their graves and give them new bodies (instead of just giving them their new bodies while they are in heaven, I cannot say. He has His own (perfect) reason for that, and the Bible does not reveal it.
That brings us to your next point, which is the return to earth of Jesus “with ten thousands of his saints”, who are the “armies” you mentioned. That event, the return of Jesus with his saints to reign on earth for a thousand years (Rev. 21:4), is different from his appearing in the sky to catch his people up to him. His appearing (and the saints’ resurrection from the dead) takes place some months before his coming. His appearing is prophesied in Revelation 14, and his coming is prophesied in Revelation 19. That is how it is that when he comes, his saints will be with him; he had already appeared in the clouds and taken them to heaven to meet the Father.
After all that, and the Final Judgment, the eternal abode of the saints then will be on the new earth, not in heaven. That was my father’s overall point. “Dying and going to heaven” is a phrase that, technically, is correct, but the larger point is that those who are judged worthy will live forever on a new earth, not in heaven with God.
I think that answers your questions, but if I have missed something, please let me know.
Pastor John
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